You have me itching to read so many of those suggestions now. I actually did read the issue where they were discussing killing Osborne, and remember being frustrated BECAUSE it was so normal and human in reactions.

I have not read the issue where we get to hear Wonder Woman’s stance on the ‘ends justify the means’ debate, and reading that now it just makes me love her more, because it is her character exactly as an old school warrior to feel that way, especially in a rape case.

I never really had an opinion on Wonder Woman until John showed me the Justice League cartoon, and I just adore that particular incarnation of her so much that she interests me more and more.

You really nail one of the great things about each of these franchises, how DC characters are all so consistent, and Marvel characters are not. I’m just happy we have both to satisfy our varying needs, and they definitely deliver on that.

I need to read The Authority…

That last suggestion about the writer asked to do Superman also sounds intriguing. I’ll be in a comic mindset all day now.

The first conversation is from an unassuming little Superman issue by Greg Rucka, sometime before anyone was aware of the massive crossover fiesta about to hit DC in ’05, and wasn’t really part of the whole Gotta Collect ‘Em All! Infinite Crisis checklists. And yet it’s one of my absolute favorite moments involving not just Diana, but Clark and Bruce as well. The DCU Trinity AS the Trinity really did hit their stride in the events of Infinite Crisis, and later, in final Crisis in ways that have never totally been replicated — not in JLA, not even in Busiek’s Trinity run — and I’m pretty sure never will be.

I’ve got this conversation transcripted, it was so good. I’ve edited it a little because of spoilers, but heres the essential info: in the past there was something called Identity Crisis, which is a really good story in it’s own right, and in TPB form too! Anyhow, during that story, someone connected to the Justice League was raped by a really, REALLY bad guy, who then threatened to do all sorts of other things when he was caught. Some members of the league decided to use mindwipes to fix it. This, as you might imagine, lead to some bad things. So, in this issue, Superman and Batman have just told wonderwoman about the stuff that happened. This is the first time Wondy’s heard any of this.

Wonder Woman: How could you be so stupid?

Superman: This isn’t Simply about what —- did to —-! This threatened to tear the League apart as it was just getting started! He Bragged about it! He said he’d do it again! He was threatening everyone we loved-

WW: And a lobotomy was your solution?

S: That wasn’t the intention! But we couldn’t lock him up; we couldn’t take the chance he’d get free again. By the time I knew what happened, it had already been done… and I kept seeing Lois, my parents.. I kept imagining myself in —-’s place…

WW: And you, Bruce? Did you know?

Batman: …

S: What was I supposed to do, Diana? Was I supposed to take in half the League? It was wrong, but there wasn’t another option-

WW: Yes there was. You should have killed him.

(Two panels dedicated to S and B’s horrified reactions)

S: That’s not an option, that’s never an option-

WW: Why? Because you think it’s immoral? More immoral than destroying his mind, than murdering his identity? You mistake — for human and he’s not. He’s a monster. If what he did to — didn’t prove it, his sadism and his delight at causing more pain surely did. And when you cannot redeem or cage the monster, when you cannot remove it’s claws, you do what you must. You slay it. —- has proven himself a monster, with a monster’s intent. As you said, do you risk his becoming the next —-?

Bat: So instead risk becoming him?

WW: You refuse to understand.

Bat: No, I understand. I simply refuse to accept.

WW: You will, Bruce. One day. … You slay rhe monster, Kal.

This is also the very first time that Superman and Batman — or the readers — are directly confronted with WW’s moral stance on the matter…and it led to wonderful things later. See, it’s not that she’s a ravening psycho, or short sighted or stupid: she’s an old school warrior with old school philosophies. And you cant convince some people that whast they’re doing are wrong, nor can you stop all of them from breaking out of jail. What can be done besides killing such people? Rucka totally understood and portrayed Wonder Woman’s propensity to take life in a way that no other writer does. Certainly not Johns, whose handling of it in the Infinite Crisis main story (which was a bizarre mess in any event, not really recommended) was unanimously and deservedly panned. And not even Gail Simone in her run, which is all right mostly, but it has Diana mention “Hey I sometimes believe in killing things, teehee!” in narration boxes at any possible opportunity — so much so that it becomes a trite and rather hollow portion of the character — and yet when she does kill it almost comes across more as poor anger-management control than any well-thought-out moral stance.

And yet Rucka gets Superman and Batman as well. Superman is, first and foremost an Idealist, he fights for values that he holds dear to his heart. And too many people, reader and writer, equate this with shallowness and naivite. (Captain America has the same problem; remember the last issue of Frontline in Civil war?) But not so here. He doesn’t agree with Wondy and he’s being forced to face some painful truths here, but he’s not being portrayed as an idiot or anything. He has his reasons, and they’re not bad reasons, and his governing ethos as a superhero is that *no one has the right to take another persons life. Period.* And Batman? “No, I understand. I just refuse to accept.” says it all, doesn’t it? Everyone thinks that Batman is a hero of justice, but that isn’t quite the case; he wouldn’t be a vigilante if it were. Batman, rather than values or codes, is a servant of life, and to kill anyone… ANYONE… is to rob them of life, to rob them of the chance to better themselves. And he believes that everyone can better themselves, that everyone is worth saving.

The second conversation from marvel is a little different. It’s from a New Avengers comic I think a few months back; I couldn’t tell you the issue. Now unfortunatly, I didn’t saver a transcript of that one, but it’s the scene where Spider-Man and Ronin…er, Hawkeye…um, Clint Barton argue about killing Osborn or not. Clint is like, “We kill him. We should have killed him long ago.” And Peter’s like, “No, we have to be heroic. We have to stand for something.” And then it devolves almost instantly into ad hominems and angry posturing, with both characters looking kinda childish with poorly-thought-out arguments. Now, some people don’t like this about marvel, how quickly all the heroic characters antagonize each other, and how wishy washy and whiney they are about the to kill or not to kill thing. but the thing is, I can see these characters having this fight, and I like it. In fact, it’s an eerily-reasonable presentation of what would happen in real life if two people were discussing this issue; ie, piss-poor arguments, personal insults. Peter’s just droning catchphrases without understanding, without putting any thought into what they really mean…and Clint’s just not putting any thought into anything at all. Real people are contradictory and hypocritical, and they second guess themselves every time, and that’s kind of what I saw there. It was *flawlessly* realistic, and great study of both characters in its own depressing sort of way. Like I said in my first post, I like DC because most of its heroes are internally consistent, and I like marvel because most of its heroes aren’t.

And Janskoller, if you’re serious about hating superman… well, I can’t blame you. I like Superdickery as much as the next comics nerd, and I cannot deny all the times when he’s been portrayed as whiney, self righteous, uncompromising, and well a dick. But after five years of seriously reading comics, I no longer hate superman. He’s too… something to me, because at least now I understand where he’s coming from. I got three things to recommend to you, that shows his better sides.

The first is Superman Action Comics 775, entitled What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice, and the American Way

In a not-so-subtle jab at The Authority (A really violent, self righteous and zealous superhero team in Wildstorm comics) and the tendency towards violent superheroes in general, a group of superheroes called The Elite starts coming to the rescue – killing the bad guys and endangering the civilians. The population loves them, Superman does not. They challenge him to a fight and televise it all over the planet. He wins, in a completely badass way, I might add, but the head of the Elite tells him he lives in a “dream world” and that his methods will never work. Superman’s response is… look just read the comic, it’s great.

The second one is Hitman #34. Hitman is a great series by Garth Ennis I think you would like, and Amanda too! Anyhow, the main character of Hitman, Tommy, is chilling on a roof when Superman, out of the blue shows up. He had just saved 3 people in a shuttle accident, but told Tommy the entire tale. There was one he didn’t save and he brings up what he thinks is the man’s thought process “You are Superman and you aren’t going to save me”
Despite saving others the ones he can’t save are the ones he will always remember. Striving to do better, still feeling human and showing us what we could be all at once- that’s really superman. And tommy’s speech when he reminds Supes of this, it was beautiful. So hunt this down if you can.

And the third is actually not a superhero story at all, but a vertigo comic entitled, Its a Bird by Steven Seigal (or Seele, or something). It’s a semi-biographical story about a comics writer that is approached to do superman, pretty much the highest honor a comics writer can get… and he doesn’t want it. You see, this comics writer doesn’t like superman for a lot of the reason you don’t seem to like him: he’s boring, he’s whiney, he’s a self righteous bully, he’s too powerful to be interesting, etc. But throughout the story, he dissect superman, talks about many of the underlying themes of the Superman comics, and reveals that his issues with superman may have to do with more personal issues of his own. It’s a really good comic, and I hope you try to find it.

What would DC be without Batman, I wonder…?

“Any of the Marvel heroes can be painted as paragons (and have been) and any one of the DC Trinity or other super heroes can be humanized (and have been).” That is the best way to say it and why I love them both equally for different reasons.

“When DC killed Superman, it was lame. When Marvel killed Captain America it was a dramatic statement on the nature of public debate in this country…” YES! Though it disheartens me that they are doing what they always do and bringing Cap back. Tis the nature of comics though.

I barely remember the old Wonder Woman show, though I know I caught reruns on occasion. Loved the cameo in Sky High. I also adore my days spent watching “Justice League”, one of the best cartoons of our time, and the little potential romance between Wonder Woman and Bats.

Superman wins me over occasionally, but I’m a Batman girl, and otherwise, if I’m being really honest, I’d probably have to go with Marvel. Such great points have been this round, and I think they all have merit.

Superman (The not quite so ‘Last Son of Krypton’ anymore) – No Doomsday didn’t actually kill me. I was just in my Superman healing capsule out in space that I was conveniently transported to with know one knowing.

Captain America – Funny thing, I wasn’t shot with a actual bullet, but rather a “time-displacing” bullet. I’m reliving my past life as it happened until I can come back as Osborne is starting to fall apart.

Jean Grey is only excuse since the whole Phoenix thing.

Despite this, we still read. DC and Marvel are able to keep our interest while insulting our fanyboy/girl selves by using the plot device of “well actually” for over half a century now.

While I love Batman and Green Lantern, I only like the DC universe as a while. They are the only characters that interest me…well actually I’m very fond of Secret Six now. I’ve tried to like other characters but I only really like them in the confines of being a support character. Oh, in case you haven’t noticed my snide comments, I hate Superman. I love the series Superman/Batman only because I view it as Batman and his side kick Superman.

Now Marvel is my true love because of the sheer volume of characters that interest me: Thor, Cap, Iron Man, Spider-man, Cabel, Deadpool…the list goes on. Hell, even Cyclops has become interesting ever since he grew a pair.

Overall I am looking forward to the continuation of Blackest Night with DC and Dark Reign rolling over into Siege with Marvel.

……seriously Superman has gone back in times I’ve lost count. I know there was in both movies Superman 1&2. I think once during the Golden Age and several times in the Silver Age. Oh and apparently he has Super Math(but got the wrong answer) and Weaving abilities as well. God I hate him

When it comes to which set of hero’s I would rather have come to my rescue, well, I’d rather have the Justice League, because unbeatable paragon’s of virtue have a pretty consistent track record of not breaking the random screaming female’s neck in a misjudged rescue attempt (for all the Big Bang Theory debate on whether or not Lois Lane should have been cut into three parts when she was rescued from the helicopter…) Superman may be overpowered and a rather uninteresting boy-scout when in super hero mode (Clark Kent is much more fascinating, which is why Lois and Clark and Smallville are quite watchable… Just got Smallville season 1 used at Bull Moose, it’s a fun trip down memory lane…) but Superman is overpowered in such a reassuring way.

When it comes to which universe I’d rather live in however, I’d choose Marvel. Sure the Civil War would’ve sucked… but the chances of attending the Xavier school for Gifted Youngsters would be well worth the heart ache- provided I got to have the externally directed healing factor. And I know you’d trade you’re PS3 for pyrokinesis and a set of claws. I don’t know, I guess it just seems like Marvel has a much bigger population density for people with powers.

When things boil down… here’s my final statement. When DC killed Superman, it was lame. When Marvel killed Captain America it was a dramatic statement on the nature of public debate in this country, as well as a carrying plot device instead of a dumb attempt to increase circulation. Circulation had been increased before the bullet was fired.

So those are my vapid self insertion styled ideas on this debate. There’s just one thing I have to say. My older sister will still wax happily about the Wonder Woman series of the late 70′s staring Lynda Carter. It aired for three seasons and was, from the hero worshiping memories I’ve been treated to over the years, generally awesome in reruns.